Avid Editor's Insights

Torture and Gitmo! (Featuring Stevens Beheading)

Posted by Glezele Vayne on March 13, 2009

BS”D

Yes. This is my “Crowder” phase. Deal with it. — Ellie Katz

While Crowder makes some good points, and he’s made yet another funny video, I can’t endorse waterboarding or minimize it’s effects. On the one hand, it really depends on the details of a given waterboarding episode.

But in the end, I think I gotta go with Hillel on this, “Whatever is hateful to you, do not do to your brother–that is the whole Torah. All the rest is commentary.” Of course, it could be argued that a jihadi who is out to kill as many Americans or non-Muslims as possible, and has declared his intent to do exactly that, is not my brother. Soooo…I’m still thinking this over.

I’m also concerned about he principle of midah kneged midah — measure for measure. If we endorse torture, then we have no moral standing to argue against it when our people suffer torture at the hands of our enemies.

From Schmoozing with Elya & Ellie Katz

14 Responses to “Torture and Gitmo! (Featuring Stevens Beheading)”

  1. shiva said

    To spill a bucket of water on a jihadi is a small price to pay when it could potentially save infidel life.

    Through out history the only people who have pushed back islam are those that have been prepared to be as ruthless as the moslems.

    The infidels have won a few battles, but is losing the greater war.

    We are at war, so we should stop behaving like pussies

    • elyakatz said

      BS”D

      Apart from the moral considerations, which I refuse to dismiss, there is the question of effectiveness. Here is a quote from one of the articles I linked in my post: “Most CIA officials say water boarding is not torture, although many see it as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can’t trust anything he tells you. — What is Waterboarding? by Julia Layton

      There are degrees of waterboarding, according to other experts. If it’s use in a given situation can be categorized as torture, and torture yields unreliable information, then we’re just venting.

      As far as the Crowder video on the topic, if one scolls down and reads his responses to his viewers, he does not endorse torture, and is not meaning to do so in the video. What he is doing is questioning the leftist accusation of torture at Gitmo. Our men sure have to endure a lot, every time they bring the legally required 3 squares a day to these guys, who throw all manner of “products” at them. Pretty sick.

      While I realize that historically, governments have successfully beaten back jihadis using pretty brutal tactics, this is the first time a truly free people have attempted to do so, while still retaining the nature and integrity of our way of life. If we become like our enemies in our victory, again…what’s the point?

      Yesh din v’dayan. Believe it.

  2. shiva said

    We beat the Nazis by being just as ruthless, yet did we become Nazis. No.

    If freedom is so precious then I am afraid we may have to compromise some of our moral integrity.

    This is war, and I am sick of people who dream they can win this war by riding a high moral hobby horse against an enemy that does not think twice about hacking your head off.

    Shiva:

    It’s easier to track the flow of the comments chronologically if you post your comment in the reply button within my comment box, as I did yours. You’ll see the button from the front, not the dashboard. I think WordPress changed the comment software somehow. Confusing, I know.

    Nice debate. I’ll reply tomorrow evening sometime.

    Be well. Ellie

  3. shiva said

    I would go even further and bung them into a giant washing machine and let the experience a “rip curl”

    • avideditor said

      LOL Shiva. Thank you so much for your great work in posting “This Day”. Keep up the great work. 🙂 I would not buy the jihadis shit that is not to say I am not with Jack Bower in 24. 😉

  4. shiva said

    Ellie

    I post this way because after a few replies we end up with so many boxes that it is like a Matryoshka doll

    The problems start when enhanced interrogation is left in the hands of thugs.

    Enhanced Interrogation should only be carried out by people with years of training in Psychiatry Psychology (Hans Jurgen Eysenck) and an understanding of the human aura, and know when the interrogated is lying.

    Enhanced Interrogation, should not be abandoned because of weak minded pussies/leftards do not know the difference Enhanced interrogation and torture.

    Torture is not pleasant, and this is why the islamists cry torture, because most people will imagine the worst, and start comparing our Intelligence Services to other brutal regimes, that dont blink an eye when their victims are stripped of there skin and flesh right to the bone.

    If surfers can willingly face a rip curl daily for kicks then I have no problem that a potential mass murder is subjected to a mild water board if saving life is the object.

    Also if small kids from my co-partners village (moslem) can horse play with my rottweilers, then I have no problem that dogs are present at Interrogations.

    If these mass murderous moslems have no problem in slitting the throats of animals and humans and letting them slowly bleed to death, then I have no problem in feeding them pork, and if they do not like it, let them chose to become martyrs the slow way, its their choice.

    Before you reply, just give a thought to Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, and a second thought to Gilad Shalit

    • elyakatz said

      BS”D

      Okay, well, we’ll just read zig-zag style. I wonder what happened here, because my blog is not handling comments this way, and Avid’s blog hasn’t always either.

      Shiva wrote: “Enhanced Interrogation should only be carried out by people with years of training in Psychiatry Psychology (Hans Jurgen Eysenck) and an understanding of the human aura, and know when the interrogated is lying.”

      I’m pretty much in line with you on this. I do not agree that we became as ruthless as the Nazis and that is why we beat them. We maintained our moral compass. One example that set us apart from the Nazis: We did not shoot prisoners for the fun of it.

      Americans stuck with legitimate self-defense, which in and of itself is not for pansies. Maybe instead of claiming that we were as ruthless as the Nazis, and that is why we beat them, would be this: We need to be more resolute than our enemies. Then we win. But we don’t need to duplicate their cruelty.

      By that I am not implying at various enhanced interrogation methods aren’t a legitimate tool, with one caveat — the goal must be obtaining reliable information that has the potential to save innocent lives, not merely causing pain to the one being interrogated.

      • shiva said

        Well, unfortunately mostly all people who have used torture have not been interrogators, but perverted sadists, where causing pain has been the priority, and getting the truth was not their goal.

        What I should be looked into is how are the interrogated being treated, they can not be treated as criminals, as a criminal is aware that they are doing wrong, and this will reflect in their behavior under interrogation, where as a moslem he is doing right, so his behavior is very difficult to read, if not impossible. There fore the question arises, is it a good idea to take prisoners, better to finish them off.

        • elyakatz said

          BS”D

          If they are just finished off, then how do we get information on possible terror attacks?

          One problem I see is that Western nations are not discriminating enough in who they allow to visit them or immigrate. If we protected our borders better (which includes International airports) and kept better track of visas etc. terror cells operating within our borders would be a moot point. That would reduce the need to interrogate, simply because we would be less engaged with our enemies.

          • shiva said

            I do not think we gain much info from captured jihadis, because they are split into autonomous cells.

            Where we have gained most info is from captured hard drives

            The second part of your reply meshes well with how I think.

            I am all for a mandatory death penalty for anybody involved with terrorism. The best way to start would be, if Gilad Shalit is not alive, then Israel should executed every single person who has Jewish blood on their hands, and only return their remains for the exchange of Gilads.

            • elyakatz said

              BS”D

              Regarding a mandatory death penalty for those with blood on their hands, absolutely. When they are in prison, they become bargaining chips for either side. Not good.

              • avideditor said

                I think we should kill and extract all the info from the jihadis with blood on their hands, if not all of them 😉 I personally do not care how they get the info as long as it is good and they get it.

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