Liberty Forest Holocaust Deniers
Posted by Glezele Vayne on December 23, 2009
by Ellie Katz
During my 6 month stint as a member of Liberty Forest (RonPaulForums.com) I never saw any moderator or Admin taking issue with the premise of the following thread…namely, that questioning the existence of the Holocaust is a legitimate intellectual activity, and does not in any way indicate that one is an anti-semite.
Excuse me, but denying or trivializing the trauma imposed upon the Jewish people by the perpetration of the Holocaust, while at the same time insisting this evil mischief does not make one an antisemite is no different than a man who doubts the veracity of a given rape victims’s claim, said claims having been witnessed by an entire neighborhood who then testified under oath that the woman was indeed brutally raped, while at the same time claiming he means no disrespect to the woman, and is not in fact, a misogynist.
Yeah I know. It doesn’t say much for her neighbors either.
I now find many craters in this thread, with many of the worst comments having been removed by the mods. I did not take the time to check when those craters developed as I saved and updated my saves of this thread. Thus, sadly, I do not have the original version of the thread. What is left is, however, revealing enough.
Liberty Forest (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php)
- Hot Topics (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=54)
- – Interesting video from a holocaust denier… (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=156611)
LibertiORDeth 09-19-2008 11:51 PM
Interesting video from a holocaust denier…
I had always accepted that these “revisionists” were anti-Semitic liars, and was taught that by the news, history books etc, but he does pose some interesting points and questions. Can anyone refute what he says?
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 12:03 AM
The evidence of the Holocaust is undeniable. My own stepmother’s father who was an American General saw with his own eyes the horrors of the concentration camps.
Bruno 09-20-2008 12:04 AM
here we go again
LibertiORDeth 09-20-2008 12:10 AM
Right, can you go through the video and disprove what he is saying then?
Flash 09-20-2008 12:22 AM
You should watch this:
Andrew-Austin 09-20-2008 12:43 AM
Put this in the write section next time luke, hot topics.
dannno 09-20-2008 12:48 AM
It’s crazy how “conspiracy theories” are so completely mis-represented by mainstream media that people have no idea what the theory actually is.. and have no actual interest in finding out..
tmosley 09-20-2008 12:51 AM
My great uncle liberated one of the camps. He was part of no conspiracy or coverup. Holocaust deniers are assholes.
Of course, Zionists using the Holocaust to justify their Nazi-style actions are even bigger assholes.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 12:51 AM
Quote Originally Posted by lukeownzu (Post 1692854):
“Right, can you go through the video and disprove what he is saying then?”
Denying the holocaust is like denying that the sky is blue. How can you say that the eye-witness accounts of millions of people are lies?
LibertiORDeth 09-20-2008 12:52 AM
Bit late for that, I am the wrong person to ask.
Glezele Vayne note: The fact that lukeownzu is quoted but his original quoted post is not shown is an indication of a crater in this thread.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 12:53 AM
Alright danno, I’ll bite.What has the mainstream media told us about Holocaust denial that’s incorrect?
dannno 09-20-2008 12:56 AM
You might keep in mind that the term “Holocaust Denier” is rarely if ever self-applied. That means that someone who has an alternative facts that contradict the official story of the Holocaust are generally considered Holocaust Deniers. I don’t think that anybody denies that millions of people were slaughtered in concentration camps in Germany during that time period, which is what some of you seem to be arguing. Many were probably Jewish, perhaps millions (maybe even 6 million?). I have no idea, personally. I wasn’t there. I haven’t seen this guy’s video yet cause I can’t watch videos at work, and I don’t know what his actual opinion is of what happened, but I’ll bet none of the people who are rejecting this guy off the bat have heard what he has to say either.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 01:02 AM
The video claims that mass-murder in Auschwitz wasn’t proven, which is complete nonsense. And dannno, most Holocaust denial is pure neo-Nazi/anti-Semitic trash that DOES deny that 6 million Jews were killed. Case-in-point: that jackass David Irving.
dannno 09-20-2008 01:22 AM
That would have been a much better first post. By mentioning specifics, rather than throwing everything he has to say out the window just because of a label seems kinda ridiculous.
Quote Originally Posted by Agent Chameleon (Post 1692956)
“And dannno, most Holocaust denial is pure neo-Nazi/anti-Semitic trash that DOES deny that 6 million Jews were killed. Case-in-point: that jackass David Irving. “
Well I certainly don’t support ALL people who have the term “Holocaust Denier” applied to them, in fact I can’t really name any that I support. I just like to keep an open mind about things.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 01:25 AM
Why do I need to justify my stance on Holocaust denial? It’s complete insanity. People who advocate this trash deserve nothing but ridicule. I’ll admit I didn’t see it first time around, because I knew what it would be about. I looked at the OP’s post and put 2 and 2 together. And lo and behold, I take a look at this video and it’s everything I thought it would be. Holocaust deniers are very predictable. And open minds are wonderful, but know that almost everyone who pushes this garbage has an axe to grind against the Jews. Tread carefully in that world.
constituent 09-20-2008 02:10 AM
The only problems w/ the holocaust are using it as a crutch, pretending that it’s the only time in history groups have been targeted by their governments for extermination and ignoring that the victims of the mass murder were not exclusively “jewish.”
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 02:20 AM
I don’t have a problem with that position. It’s quite a different thing to push for people to stop using the Holocaust as a weapon.
JosephTheLibertarian 09-20-2008 02:25 AM
My great grandfather was an Italian soldier during WW2. I have his pic
Josh_LA 09-20-2008 02:40 AM
You should watch this:
I second that!
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 03:09 AM
Another bullshit video.
FrankRep 09-20-2008 03:15 AM
David Cole, is Jewish! I wasn’t exacting that.
sratiug 09-20-2008 03:35 AM
Quote Originally Posted by lukeownzu (Post 1692809)
I had always accepted that these “revisionists” were anti-Semitic liars, and was taught that by the news, history books etc, but he does pose some interesting points and questions. Can anyone refute what he says? “
Not me. Very interesting stuff.
Glezele Vayne note: Here is the quote which shows us that it was lukeownzu who originally made the above statement, along with the video links he apparently posted. But from the editing done by either Admin or the mods, it would appear at first glance that LibertiORDeth had first posted these videos and the above quote. Not so. It appears LibertyiORDeth was quoting lukeownzu.
LibertiORDeth 09-20-2008 03:45 AM
Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep (Post 1693169)
“David Cole, is Jewish! I wasn’t exacting that.”
Nor was I.
The non-sequitur indicates another crater — Glezele Vayne.
FrankRep 09-20-2008 03:56 AM
I don’t support National Socialism, racism, hatred, or Hitler, but these videos do raise some very interesting questions. I like the fact that the investigator is Jewish and it isn’t a Pro-Nazi propaganda video.
Glezele Vayne note: “When somebody says something and then they say ‘but’, well, everything after the ‘but’ is what they really meant to say. — Bill Whittle on PJ TV, Where Obama Went Right: Afghanistan Decision Outrages MSNBC & Moore” December 3, 2009.
Another truism when scrutinizing the true meaning of someone’s words: the use of the word “but” nullifies the preceding words. — Ellie Katz
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:21 AM
That doesn’t mean anything. Notorious Neo-nazi and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel has Jewish ancestry. There was a recent incident of a group of Jewish neo-Nazis in Israel. Read between the lines. What is there to gain from denying the Holocaust other than legitimizing the Nazi regime?
Josh_LA 09-20-2008 04:22 AM
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:23 AM
Josh LA, what’s the point of your comic? Who said anything about anything being evil if Hitler did it? And why are you posting a White Nationalist comic?
Josh_LA 09-20-2008 04:28 AM
Because white nationalists are people too.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:30 AM
Josh LA get this WN crap off the Ron Paul Forums. This vile shit doesn’t belong here.
LibertiORDeth 09-20-2008 04:32 AM
Lol. Isn’t the number like 20 million? In response to a previous post, there is no more gained out of this then out of saying 9/11 was an inside job, basically to expose the lies for what they are (or IF they are) and so we can truly learn history so we don’t repeat it (to paraphrase the famous saying).
Josh_LA 09-20-2008 04:34 AM
Ron Paul supporter bigoted? I’m not posting off topic either.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:34 AM
Theres a big difference between 9/11 truth and hate speech coming from this comic. Look up this comic on google and you will see the horrible smears against the Jewish people that’s on this vile comic, and how the author is proud to be an associate of Stormfront. We Ron Paul Revolutionaries must purge these WN inflitrators from our ranks.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:35 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Josh_LA (Post 1693273)”
“Ron Paul supporter bigoted? I’m not posting off topic either.”
That makes no bloody sense.
LibertiORDeth 09-20-2008 04:39 AM
I am not supporting or denying the comic, and only quoted it as it was above me.
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:42 AM
I notified the mods. Hopefully they’ll do something about this.
max 09-20-2008 04:58 AM
If 911 was the biggest fraud of the 21st century….the holohoax was the biggest fraud of the 20th century
Agent Chameleon 09-20-2008 04:58 AM
You’re crap doesn’t belong on the Ron Paul Forums. Go back to Stormfront.
Kraig 06-17-2009 08:01 PM
Quote Originally Posted by ElyaKatz (Post 2170990)
“Why is it that the Arabs in Israel do not fear that they will be woken up in the middle of the night to an Israeli boot at their neck? Why do Druzim serve in the IDF? Why are they honored for their service? The Arabs of Israel live very nice, prosperous lives in Israel. I’ve seen the huge villas these Arab families live in. It could be the same, were it not for Hamas and Hezbollah, forcing these people into a fight that many would probably rather not be involved in, but if they refuse…they lose their heads.”
LMAO so it is only Hamas and Hezbollah that force people to fight now? Wake up to reality man.
ElyaKatz 06-17-2009 08:46 PM
Quote Originally Posted by LibertiORDeth (Post 1694032)
“I actually believe it’s the Vatican, using a number of elements, one being Arabs, another being Zionists, but that’s just my opinion based on the evidence I have seen… “
See, now this is closer to the truth. I’m not sure if it’s the Vatican…but there is some group of elitists that just love to see a good fight, lots of blood and broken stuff. It’s profitable for them, They get lots of cushy government jobs that way, they get to send in independent contractors who make more money in a year than some people can make in 10, and sell more weapons and weapons technology. Also, wars kill a lot of people, which takes care of all the “useless eaters”. So, they do whatever it is they do to inflame people against one another. The Jewish people are perfect victims for this game, given their very real history of being persecuted, with a sense that their back is absolutely up against the wall. So are the Muslims…who’s religious passions are easily inflamed, especially against the Jews, but really against anyone they define as a “kuffar”…and that includes moderate Muslims or Muslims who don’t observe their particular brand of Islam “correctly”.I’m not going to put a label on “who” it is that is doing this, but it is NOT primarily the Arabs or the Jews…they are pawns. And the people standing on the sidelines hating one or the other group are like the folks at cock-fight, wishing for as much blood as possible. It’s all disgusting.The thing I wonder about is this: WHY is it such a focus of this forum, who’s stated raison d’etre is to get America back on the constitutional path??? Which would mean this: Americans stop hedging their bets for either side as far as government is concerned. What we do in our private lives with private funds and resources is our business, provided it doesn’t involve treason. This means I can be a supporter of Israel in my private life, as long as we are not at war with Israel, which would be treason. Any support I or any other Jew lends to Israel, morally or materially does not call into question my loyalty to America. The reason for the existence of this forum is to figure out together what we can do to get back to the business of running our country according to the Constitution.I for one did not come to this forum expecting to see all kinds of shitty posts about evil Zionists, how a given Rabbi is supposedly condoning genocide, how Israelis are oppressing Palis. There are a few members (36 and counting) that are very, very focused on this, and bring the whole “Zionism” question into nearly every debate. Does Dr. Paul do this? I doubt it. And I don’t think he would appreciate these sorts of conversations. I came to appreciate Dr. Paul from a 2 year study of constitution and the law. After I had studied this topic, Dr. Paul entered the presidential race, and because of what I’d learned, I was attracted to his cause. Before that, I had not really paid the Libertarians or Dr. Paul much mind. It didn’t take me long to see the whole “Zionists are evil” and the “Jews are bad” themes running under his videos and in various forums and blogs. I have never, ever appreciated the rather high number of supporters who seem to delight in blaming Israel, Zionism and the Jewish people for all of America’s ills. America is sick because the American people have been asleep since the Civil War and before that. Most Americans are gentiles. So who is to blame??? Don’t tell me that .002% of the world is running things into the ground, because if gentiles can be controlled that easily, then they deserve what they get. That theory is a lie. It’s a way to duck out of responsibility by blaming some boogey-man for your troubles. That way you can sit on your fanny, eat potato chips, drink beer, watch another conspiracy theory “video” and do nothing.
ElyaKatz 06-17-2009 08:53 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Kraig (Post 2171022)
“LMAO so it is only Hamas and Hezbollah that force people to fight now? Wake up to reality man.”
Do you actually read the words you quote in your posts? I see no specific response to what I wrote here. Maybe it’s just my computer, but the link you provided doesn’t work.
paulim 06-17-2009 09:10 PM
Exactly. And for that kind of behaviour people should be banned. Its without value, simply distorting the serious thoughts of others. Whats funny about this thread, is that it reaffirms my opinion that the worst enemies of peacefull coexistence with the jewish religion are some jews who can’t hide their arrogance towards the other people of the world.
ElyaKatz 06-17-2009 09:40 PM
Definition of discussion: an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic.
Definition of rhetoric: The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively. According to the Forum Rules, all off-topic posts (not specifically dealing with whether or not the original video posted by Cole can be debunked) are subject to being deleted. Wouldn’t bother me. I’ve copied the entire thread.
LATruth 06-17-2009 10:14 PM
Quote Originally Posted by revolutionisnow (Post 2170763)
“To get them to stop investigating the” holocaust” it is real simple also, stop indoctrinating our school children with education about it, stop putting out 2 hollywood films a year about it, and stop trying to use it to portray the Jewish people and the event as some unique suffering. There is nothing unique about it. There have been 100+ million other deaths by genocide,wars,planned famine,etc in the last decade alone, and of various races and religions. But if we are going to be forced to “never forget”, lets at least make sure we get the story straight.”
dannno 06-17-2009 10:20 PM
Quote Originally Posted by ElyaKatz (Post 2171120)
“The Jewish people are perfect victims for this game, given their very real history of being persecuted, with a sense that their back is absolutely up against the wall. So are the Muslims…I’m not going to put a label on “who” it is that is doing this, but it is NOT primarily the Arabs or the Jews…they are pawns. And the people standing on the sidelines hating one or the other group are like the folks at cock-fight, wishing for as much blood as possible. It’s all disgusting.”
Ok, see, here, I completely agree with everything up there, especially the part in bold. Jewish people are pawns, so is the Christian Right in this country (less the ones who support Ron Paul ). A lot of people have been made into pawns by the elite. And that doesn’t make them bad people, I believe Jewish people are very good people. So why would it surprise you if some of the Holocaust happened, sort of, but was blown up by the elite and made into what we know about it today? I’m not saying the Jews weren’t persecuted and killed, I’m saying that the elite wanted to put this group over in the Middle East in order to control the region’s resources and turned the incident into what they wanted to achieve these things. They were like a sacrifice. Israel doesn’t control the region’s resources, but western governments do control the region in part because Israel is there. We were able to make deals and if not then install dictators to ensure we remained in control. It was a central headquarters for international intelligence to gather to embark on middle east campaigns. We made sure their leaders cooperated, and if not, we chose new ones. Israel also helps destabilize the region for these purposes.
Quote Originally Posted by ElyaKatz (Post 2171120)
“The thing I wonder about is this: WHY is it such a focus of this forum, who’s stated raison d’etre is to get America back on the constitutional path??? I for one did not come to this forum expecting to see all kinds of shitty posts about evil Zionists, how a given Rabbi is supposedly condoning genocide, how Israelis are oppressing Palis. There are a few members (36 and counting) that are very, very focused on this, and bring the whole “Zionism” question into nearly every debate. Does Dr. Paul do this? I doubt it. And I don’t think he would appreciate these sorts of conversations.”
Do you need to see the youtube of Ron Paul saying that the Palis live in a concentration camp? He admits they are oppressing the Palis too.
ElyaKatz 06-17-2009 10:32 PM
Quote Originally Posted by dannno (Post 2171269)
“Do you need to see the youtube of Ron Paul saying that the Palis live in a concentration camp? He admits they are oppressing the Palis too.”
Saw it. I don’t agree. The(y) (sic) live in very crowed conditions, much like the ghettos of Europe, but the Israelis didn’t put them there. Dr. Paul is a good man who can be wrong, like anyone can be wrong. I have read these theories of the Jewish people being pawns by Jews. The difference in tone is amazing. There is compassion there, not vilification. I also notice a gross imbalance in how often the “Zionists” are covered. The Zionists are not to blame. The as yet unnamed elitists who are pulling the strings are to blame. The average “little” Zionist is deeply wounded by painting with such a wide brush. I don’t think the numbers are exaggerated re the Holocaust. I think the elitists directed the murders. These people hide behind many identities, be it Jewish, Muslim, Catholic or any other label you can come up with.
The above video cited has since been removed by YouTube – Glezele Vayne notes.
Dr. Paul utilized Dr. Kings words during his Presidential campaign. Perhaps his supporters need to remember some of Dr. King’s other words.
ElyaKatz 06-18-2009 06:33 AM
Reverse response on quotes
Quote Originally Posted by revolutionisnow (Post 2171435)
“Taking a list of names, copying the entire thread, so are you associated with the JIDF or or other megaphone type web censorship/manipulation groups? “
Nope. I did it for my own protection…
Rest of the thread is off-point – Glezele Vayne Notes
Adam Holland has done some incisive analysis of Liberty Forest and other Ron Paul support sites. Ron Paul forum anti-Semitism By the way Adam, Ron Paul members really like Max Blumenthal…he makes their arguments for them. Just a friendly nudge….
I know enough Ron Paul supporters and enough about them, and about the history of political movements in Europe prior to the Holocaust, to know America has not heard the last from Dr. Ron Paul supporters (and those of Dr. Rand Paul, his son)f them, which is why I continue to dredge up the topic from time to time.
From Glezele Vayne